To those women coders, I'm sorry for this bullshit.

@Codex404 oh no, it was most definitely meant for you. And I think the fact that you're doing this now just furthers my point. You were condescending from your very first message and now are even going as far as to pull passive-aggressive shit on other threads entirely.

@vane but what I do know is that releasing unfinished buggy garbage hurts reputation a lot more than "ehh, they're more meticulous than I think they should be".

While customers might not be able to tell you very well what they want, they'll sure as fuck tell you what they don't want. And people forget delays a lot quicker than they forget trash.

@vane and that's what I love doing and what my work ultimately encompasses. I wound up specializing in text/language. Businesses process tons of it; they inherently need to. If I've got a product that is generally faster and more light weight, that's an easy sell to management (you can process x% more documents per day, or whatever, is a no brainer if the price is good).

But great care has always been taken to ensure that these systems are easy to develop in/with. And that they are released _after_ editor integration has been developed so you aren't fucking around without syntax highlighting or intellisense.

"Yeah but how long until the next release?" I don't fucking know? How about we get the results from usability testing and see what changes need to be made. And after those changes I still can't actually tell you because people don't actually know what they want, so usability testing needs to occur again and maybe they like it even less now and more changes need to occur.

@vane that's the plan. Show how things should be done.

I'm a firm believer that while people do claim they want things by a certain deadline, more than anything they want a working and viable product. I brought it up before, but gaming is currently the prime example where you see this. Absolute garbage is being released as "finished" products to meet arbitrary deadlines, and the community is largely begging them to delay the damn releases. But I've seen this with other things. Hell, a major reason why I no longer program in Ada has to do with a vendor regularly releasing their compiler or IDE by a certain deadline... filled with bugs.

I'll pick up a copy of that book. Thanks for the recommendation.

@vane I came from the second poorest county in my state. Scraping by with a minimum wage job only about two thirds of the year, unemployed the rest of the time. I'm mentally ill, enough so the state considers me disabled. I spent the overwhelming majority of my time without any kind of professional treatment in that regards, because what I have is something most therapists refuse to work with.

Don't tell me about how I have advantages over others. Especially not money when I spent the majority of my life poor as shit.

@AmyShackles *insert idubbz "I want to die" clip*

@jennytengsonM I am my boss actually. This rant was just about something I see a lot of people deal with that doesn't make much sense to me, although that seems to be due to different perspectives stemming from different business models.

I'd do time breakdowns, but when it's things like "investigate the possibility of vectorization of code point comparisons" or "investigate and implement additional graph rewrite optimizations", it's hard to give a time estimate.

@AmyShackles that's fair. I mostly work with novel things, so there's no spec, hence me seeing no need for it in my limited perspective.

@Santaclauze I am so sorry, I tagged the wrong person. I feel awful. This was not directed towards you. Sorry!

@Codex404 no they aren't, I agree with you there. The OP was about _deadlines_ and yet you've been remarkably condescending towards me and twisted it into me not understanding or not appreciating _estimates_.

Then you have the audacity to try to spin this off as me conflating the very thing you did? Fuck right off asshole.

@mathume thanks bud

@netikras thank you, this is an actual explanation from a perspective different from my own. I appreciate your insight.

@Santaclauze I don't have to imagine. I have a great personal experience with this. Two different contractors who've done work on my place.

The one who did give a deadline built my porch, which needed to be reconstructed within five years because he cut corners to meet the deadline he arbitrarily held himself to.

The one who did my bathroom wouldn't give an estimate because they felt it was misleading as they didn't know what they'd be getting themselves into since the didn't do the original construction and weren't sure how well it was done. I've used them for several projects now and everything has been phenomenal.

From what I've gathered, it's from a difference in business models. Time deadlines are important for contract work but not OTS work.

And instead of just explaining a perspective I get condescendingly bitch at. Cool.

@Fast-Nop OTS is off-the-shelf dude. That's not how that works.

@Fast-Nop Well I am my boss, so really the customers are my boss. Maybe it's because I offer OTS solutions instead of contract work? But I know damn well they care more about a quality release than whether or not a certain deadline they know nothing about was met.

@2stxff yeah except certain things are pretty predictable.

I used to cook. Estimating those deadlines is easy. A burger is a burger and med-rare is med-rare. The only timing that has to be factored in is whether the grill has been loaded to where it's cooled down.

Estimating code isn't anywhere near as straight forward. Take my current project: an alternative model text parsing and pattern declaration engine. The design is novel. Despite superficial similarities to some existing stuff, the implementation is drastically different. With something that hasn't been done before, how can you possibly give a time deadline?

@Gregozor2121 "If they cant even open the fridge i doubt they will be able to use the contents."

Oh man the cringe is strong. I worked with 'em for five years. There's a considerable difference in strength requirements between opening the door and simply taking an apple out.

@Gregozor2121 Hence the motor to open/close it... you see where this was going now?

@2stxff It's hard to find funds when people won't buy your product because it's "prereleased" garbage either. And it damages your reputation.

From what it sounds like, we're dealing with different business models, different product delivery methods. So that's probably where this difference in perspective comes from.

@Fast-Nop "In writing my thesis"

Yeah I was talking about for papers. Books have their own requirements with specialized software (like saving chapters in separate files and compiling them all together).

@2stxff Quite the opposite actually. I learned the value of delivering a finished product based on feature and code quality requirements, not time deadlines.

The extreme amount of garbage releases we're seeing in video games right now shows how bad time deadlines are.

@Codex404 Been programming for 14 years.

So no, haven't been "junior" for a while.

@Codex404 Not a junior developer, but the condescension here is nice. Thanks. 👌

@zeters I used to be big on it until I realized the things that make it good, Word has anyways. Just because the occasional idiot manually formats everything instead of assigning styles, it gets a bad, undeserved rap.

Formula and diagrams are immensely easier in it, too.

That being said I get to write a research paper in markdown and that's wonderful.

And then there are people who legitimately wonder why Word, etc. are so popular.

Nope. You got a "pass the buck" workplace. Get out.

@Plasticnova wasn't*

Unless he uploaded it again. The author had pulled it from NPM and sparked a big controversy a few years ago.

@reij therein lies the problem and is exactly why it's fake. If they're only asking because they want the answer to be a certain thing, they don't care how you are doing, and therefore shouldn't be asking.