Girls: do you find that most men in our work are sexist?

A flamewar in a Mozilla bug report brought me to this article: https://notapattern.net/2014/10/...

I believe that most of the points are ridiculous, and I know I'll probably get downvoted for this, but I'd really like to hear some woman's honest opinion.

Here is the original bug report (I'm not any of the participants):
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_b...

(But I'd really like an implementation of the shadow dom, by the way)

Why would we downvote this? You're not being rude or discriminatory. It would disgust me if you were downvoted.

I don't think the "offender" here was meaning any harm initially, but his unwillingness to accept that maybe the language he uses does make some people feel excluded is problematic.

Because I work in a diverse workplace, I try to use as inclusive terms as possible - "folks", "y'all", "everyone", "@here" - will all go a long way to making the work environment feel more welcoming to all kinds of people, I don't think it's much to ask really.

@SZenC told ya 😂

@Pizza like I said, disgusting.

I do have to say, I don't agree with Anne being so sensitive, but at the same time, how the guy responded to the remark wasn't right either.
(Sorry, forgot his name)

@Pizza Also, downvoting a link to something is pretty sad.

I think the link sent is a bit extreme. I understand that aggregation makes these things into real problems, but I also find that these articles sometimes feel really aggressive, especially when posted with little context on what could be a first offense. I understand the offender for trying to defend his point of view, and find the cold tone of the responder to be part of why some have difficulties listening to feminism.

They can even be part of the marginalisation they attempt to reduce: what if the person doesn't have sufficient mastery of the language to avoid falling into these traps? Or what if their own mother-tongue doesn't have neutrality? (in French, the grammatical rule is that if a male noun is in a set, conjugation with this set should be male, that's just how the language is built, although it seems to be slowly changing)

Anyway, this article was still a good read, I'll try to think of some of these things more in the future.

(Discussion on sexism)
(Only men in the thread)

I say fuck this article.

Edit: Then again, I really dislike the feminist stupidity.

@Letmecode I wonder if those ladies get a down vote when they reply, it will be so damn ironic lol

@Szen@BlueNutterfly

Why?

@Finstew
> sometimes hard to figure out if you are 'allowed' to join the discussion

I often find myself using "guys" as a gender-neutral term, probably because English is not my primary language, but I never thought of this aspect before.
I can see why sometimes it can be annoying to some.

I'm a developer and when people notice, they always say "so you can fix my computer then?"

I'm left-handed and when people notice, they always say "are you left-handed?"

I know this can be annoying or even offending but people can't comprehend. It's just not their world and who am I to demand everybody to always be aware of all this stuff.

I know ignorance against left-handed and devs is not the best example to compare with sexism or racism. I just wanted to point out that similar things exists for all groups (also I lack being part of minorities).

Of course I could start being more sensitive and watch my language and try to be less unintentionally offensive against women or disabled people or homosexuals but I can't do it for everyone. And if I can't do it for everyone, I have to prioritize. I would probably choose big minorities in favor of small minorities and that is loosing the hole point in my opinion.

So instead I just try to be as less an asshole as possible.

@gruhn

> ...can't do it for everyone

I'm confused by this. Do you have some sort of empathy tank that drains every time you're not oppressing a minority?

The things in the linked article are SO small, claiming you don't have the time or fuel or whatever to worry about them just suggest you don't care.

@Partynextdoor I see this was not very clear. And your right. The points mentioned in the article are not at all overwhelming. But until now I wasn't aware of some of those things being a problem. And there are probably still many many other things I'm still not aware of. Maybe people in a wheelchair find the term "let's go" offensive. I have know idea. And even if you gave me a list of all the things I shouldn't say so every single person on Earth feels comfortable when I'm talking, I won't be able to follow.

You're right most of these points are ridiculous, they bring up things that normal people don't think twice about such as the use of the word "guys". And quite often they bring up a point that only strengthens what they are trying to overcome, an example in that article is something along the lines of
"If you write software that enables harassment and stalking, or makes it difficult for users to protect their personal information, you’re disproportionately driving women off of your platform"
you know because men can't be harassed or stalked online or anything and the difficulty for users to protect their information only affects women as well apparently.

I feel sorry for any poor bastard that has to work with someone that finds these sorts of things offensive. I don't know if there were any reasonable points after that because I stopped reading before I lost too many brain cells.

To reply to your initial question: no, I don't. I think there is time for continual improvement in our work and society, though.

I'm a non-native english speaker, so "guys" kinda equals "folks"/"people"/"y'all"/etc. for me as I learned it that way in school, I think.
So, I can understand the comment's POV. Also, I understand the feeling of being excluded from discussions that may come with it. Meh.

The blog article has good points, some of which aren't not just only related with sexism.
E.g. if you describe any part of your software as "hot" or "sexy" and do repeatedly so, I will deem you unprofessional, because that's the kind of language most marketing people use trying to sell something while completely ignorant about specs.

I'm not really eager to review each point, but if there's something you explicitly want some woman's opinion about, ask away.

Did anyone get offended when the author mentioned ' Ubuntu user ' as a means to indicate non tech people..or am i the only one ? 😥

@Letmecode why are you working so hard to "disprove" people's legitimate perspectives? Why does being a bit nicer and considerate for the people you work with / interact with online bother you this much?

@Letmecode I understand you're probably active in most topics, but in the rants involving women in tech - from my experience - you seem to be overwhelmingly on the "this isn't actually a problem" side of the fence.

Not trolling, just trying to understand why!

If we are being honest, there is room for improvement. Even though I say people are shit, and the like, generally, most people are harmless and nice, and just trying to trudge their way through another day of their miserable existence. they don't want any trouble or bullshit. They want to get up, go to work, and get home.

Some men treat women like shit in the workplace, as if they are inferior. Some women treat men the same way. Yes, we all should be treated equally.

That said, I think the feminist agenda is over-the-top bullshit. It goes beyond equality and tries for superiority, regardless of what it claims.

Really, life is pretty simple. Don't be an asshole to others, don't worry about what others are doing (as long as what they are doing does not hurt others), and just try to be a good person.

@QueenCodeslut this

“microaggressions: ‘social exchanges in which a member of a dominant culture says or does something, often accidentally, and without intended malice, that belittles and alienates a member of a marginalized group.’

That is what a microaggression is, and of course they’re real. “I didn’t mean to” is in the definition. I don’t get the refusal to accept this word into modern lexicon, unless you’re worried it may describe something about yourself. We humans have a hard time accepting a new idea that may mean we’re at fault for something we don’t want to be. It’s easier to notice when you’re not a member of the dominant group... but refusing to accept that microaggressions exist just blows my mind.

A “note from a boner” is a hilarious way to describe a tech “compliment” that begins with how you look, and that fake marriage proposal shit is absolutely prevalent. It’s uncomfortable, and often times those who have used it on me ended up being much more creepy/aggressive than the average male, even though each time I hope it’s just a one-off joke. It never has been. It never just ends with one.

A lot of the other opinions are hers, and while I may not agree with them (like her bit on Dark UI), I respect her perspective. She says a lot of things that aren’t particularly easy to say, because so many good people who aren’t women want to be aware of what it’s like to be one in this industry— and that’s great!

To reject her overall premise might be due to a fear of being implicated in the behaviors mentioned, because there is no logical reason to reject a reality you’ve never experienced when it’s being intelligently explained right in front of you.

I try to read everything— men’s rights literature, the plight of the GM farmer... everything I’m not exposed to in my everyday life. That’s everybody’s job, and there is already scientific literature to support the tangible financial benefits of doing so. Good post, OP.

I wish I could upvote what @BrokeTheInteger said about a thousand times.

@Letmecode code makes extremely good points too.

Both of these people are much more eloquent than me, as I have very little patience. So I go back to what I said earlier in the thread - we just need to stop being assholes to one another.

Point 5. WHAT THE FUCK. Thats it. I am not reading further.

I agree with some of them but I don't carr about most of them.

What pisses me off is when people in your field/with shared interest automatically assume you suck at tech because you're a woman. Okay I may suck but get to know me before assuming that.

And the common "you just pretend to like code/games so you can have guys love you". Like wtf that's sexist towards women but also men.

But that's usually on the web. IRL I never had a real issue. Except the "ew you like computers are you really a girl ?" comments

@Letmecode 22. Also kind of why idc about being called girl/girls. My opinion may change overtime :)

I am amazed how relatively civilized this discussion is going on. Especially for a community that is dedicated to ranting.

Imagine the same discussion on YouTube...

@Letmecode well i don't mind how people call me as long as it's not boy/tomboy. Damn teamspeak sessions...

Eeh didn't know you could notice the language from the way you write. Good to know 8)

I think people get hung up on labels too much. I am fine with woman, girl, goddess, your majesty... I hate when guys refer to women as bitches. Like "bitches live <insert topic here>. It makes me want to refer to men as "cock dribble".

Why are people having such a hard time to accept that men and women are not equal? That does not make one better than the other!
I work as a landscape contractor/gardener and of course all the heavy duties are done by men at our company. Men simply grow bigger muscles more easily and their bodies are just built for moving objects, carrying, building, etc.
Women on the other hand are just rather built for caring for the family from the inside out, raising children, aiding and educating. This is why the hospital in my town is run ONLY by women (except for one).

Of course this doesn't mean that women can't be strong or men can't be empathic, but they are definitely(by biology) less likely to be than the opposite gender. And I do not see why this is bad.

@QueenCodeslut cock dribble is such a wonderful term. I'm amazed.

1. My thoughts on this are different, as I call everyone dude, bruh, etc. I grew up in a California beach town. However, I can see how I'm not in the norm and respect the fuck out of anyone who makes an effort to not do this and/or let me know when it bothers them.

2. Please call us women. If you don't know, if she's graduated high school, call her a woman. (Getting crude, sorry: if she's hit menarche, she can have kids and is no longer a child in a biological sense - culturally is different, I don't believe a 14 year old is ready to face the world as an adult).

3. Idk. If mom is terrible at tech, mom is terrible at tech. It's similar to "everyone and their mother" is doing something...

4. Can't say I've ever noticed, but again, I call everyone bruh, so there's that. Lol

5. Good looking code is good looking code, but saying sexy or hot makes me think that's your fetish, not relating it to women in tech. If you get off on well-written code that does cool things, you do you. I'll just walk around thinking you have a code fetish.

6. This bugs me. A lot. Yes, I'm young, and yes I've got boobs. But I'm technical and there is a 98% chance you'll need me to fix your stuff (it's part of my job) so get the fuck over it. Yes, I know how to dress and i prefer nicer clothes because they tend to fit me better. Doesn't take away from the immense brain power required to understand technology.

7. See above. However, if I got my haircut or my nails done, please notice and tell me they look good ;)

8. Ehhh. I can't judge. I do the same. But I probably shouldn't.

9. WHO IN THEIR RIGHT FUCKING MINDS GIVES A DAMN NAIL FILE AS SWAG??? THAT'S NOT ANYMORE EXCITING AS GETTING HAND SOAP FOR A BIRTHDAY GIFT!!! Are you implying my hygiene/self-care needs help? Fuck off. If you're struggling that hard to think of swag items, Rubiks cube. They're in again. And they'll last longer.

10. Why is this one even still an issue?

11. Some women would love to be in tech but were made fun of for it, so they don't go into it because it's not worth the fucking harassment we go through sometimes.

12. I'M A HUMAN BEING WITH A JOB shut the fuck up and let me do it. You decided to break your shit, I can't fix it with yoy asking my opinion in mundane shit, getting a "woman's perspective." Become my friend, and I'll tell you over drinks.

13. But don't overdo it and over compensate, you turn into a "Nice Guy"

@BlueNutterfly also that, but there were a few things that pissed me off that it brought to light

@Letmecode I fucking loved writing German essays because for every noun I used, I got 2 words closer to my word limit 😂😂😂

@Partynextdoor "Guys" in proper modern English is unisex. Anne just sounds like a b*tch.

@demiko Зашищаться, huh? I know Russian as well as German along with English and my Georgian language teacher always told me I wrote sentences structured like those in German/English even though Georgian is my mother tongue.

One of the biggest problems I have is equating sex/sexy with sexism.

Anyone (regardless of gender or identity) can think code, or a car, or shoes, or the pattern in the foam on a latte is "sexy", as in so well designed that it tickles your brain in very pleasurable ways.

And I love naked beautiful people, especially women... and saying "damn you look fucking hot", even to the point of objectification, has nothing to do with sexism, but with sex. Sex can even get dominant/submissive on either side, and within the confines of consent there's nothing sexist about that.

Context is important — If you say "I love hot geeky girls" to your new female coworker you kind of deserve a punch in the face. In a flirty social situation, it depends on the complex interactions and signals someone is giving off. If you say it to your girlfriend because she's showing off some tight sexy clothes on the other hand... it might be a perfect compliment.