My company does estimates in two ways.

1. Sales person just throws a number out there, always short, and we panic code to make it happen before the client decides twice as long isn't worth it.

OR

2. The devs are told to give an estimate before having a chance to find out all the requirements, THEN ARE TOLD THEY ESTIMATED TOO HIGH AND TO LOWER THE NUMBER!

FUCK THE ESTIMATING!!! GIVE US TIME AND ACCEPT OUR ESTIMATES!! SALES PEOPLE DONT HAVE TO STAY UP IF WE NEED TO CRAM!!

Stop meeting their deadlines.

@azous that just makes you look bad. I've been in this situation and deciding not to meet deadlines always ends poorly for the guy who is supposed to deliver, not the guy who made the promise.

@sylar182 I understand, but you have to stand up and make the one who promised look bad.

@azous oh I try, but it falls on both management and the client to see who is in the wrong.

In the eyes of management, the client has already paid or is paying so the salesman has already done their job.

In the eyes of the client, you're the one failing to do what you (someone on the team) said you would or could do. That's your fault.

I don't agree with these statements, but that doesn't make them any less true in many situations.

Sounds like we work at the same place. That or this shit is more widespread than I thought :(

Also at my place of work. I've suggested they bill whatever the fuck they want, but just give me the damn hours I said it would take, I didn't just make my estimations up for my own entertainment. While you sit there and stare at me impatiently while I mentally code your shitty brief.

I'm betting the place you work has a severe technical debt problem too...

@rabb what is being caught up and not using random hacks to get the job done like? Is there such a company?

Our PMs and sales-pricks do this with us all the time, none of them have any tech knowledge at all so I usually give them some sort of car/garage metaphor....

"This is the same as calling a garage and asked them how long it takes to fix your car, you haven't told them the problem but you KNOW their estimate is wrong"

They have stopped asking me now, I'm not sure if it's because I'm right or because I'm a sarcastic little shit.

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Please forgive the language, even thinking about the sales and PMs gets my back up