I’m new to programming. I first learned G-Code and M-Code for CNC machines and being a machinist got boring, so now I’m in School for computer science. But I swear, the amount of motherfuckers that act like they are the programming gods and they know everything there is to know just because they’ve been a programmer for so and so amount of years just grinds my gears. They act like some knowledge is important while other knowledge is useless, and generalize it and push that belief on everyone. But fail to realize that some people, such as myself, just love computers in every facet. I don’t give a damn how many years of programming experience you have and how many people you’ve taught. If you act like a stuck up know it all and walk around like your shit don’t stink, I wouldn’t work with you even if I had the same amount of experience as you.

Well... something you will learn about programmers is that they are very opinionated and most of them would die defending their opinions. We're like SJWs but with a real degree and a real commitment to the ideals we promote. /s

From below, competence looks like arrogance. *shrug*

Wait you write Gcode by hand? :O

@Codex404 I used to write it by hand. Had to learn that in Machinist trade school, and when I got a job they wouldn’t let me use Cad/cam starting out so when I needed to make adjustments or make a new part I just wrote the G-Code by hand

@Fast-Nop it’s more so this person In particular keeps saying “you’re a new programmer you shouldn’t do this or that project because it’s too big and you will get burnt out from failure” and I’m just like whatever I’m still gonna try. My idea is if I fail 1000 times at a big project I’m working on, I just found 1000 ways not to do it and learned 1000 new things. Failure isn’t a bad thing, in my opinion. It’s an opportunity to learn.

@rtfm I’m the opposite, very open minded to new things. If I don’t like it. I don’t like it, but that doesn’t mean I’m right or wrong. That’s just my opinion though. I try not to come off as deeply opinionated and pushy about my opinions to others because this is America, freedom comes with the freedom to believe what you want without negative consequences....with the exception of a few moral beliefs that if actions are taken that correspond to those beliefs the offender should be incarcerated or killed.

@Spacecase94 you missed the /s.

@Fast-Nop Arrogance is the blanket that covers up insecurities and incompetence.

Arrogant people are too full of themselves to learn, hence can be knocked off their pedestal.

Arrogant people tend to be mean, and when they are, you know you have hit the limit of their knowledge as being mean is their last ditch defense in fear of being exposed.

Gurus are not arrogant.

Don't confuse arrogant with highly opinionated.

@Spacecase94 thats nice. Ive only written gcode once myself, and that was just a 1 layer square on my printbed to test bed levelling

@Spacecase94 it's OK to learn from one's failures - but it's more intelligent to learn from other peoples' failures and successes. Your life is too short to invent everything yourself.

@xcodesucks communication can only happen on the lowest common level. If that isn't enough to make the point, then the more comptent one cannot express that issue to the noob, so it's pointless. The noob has to learn first.

Any chance the senior _actually_ knows a thing or two about programming, skillset required to deliver on _this_ and _that_ projects and is actually aware you don't have what it takes?

I for one am confident a junior I'm mentoring is not capable to deliver on multiple of our projects and I will not recommend him there. If I do, I'd throw him under the bus: he would take weeks to build simple features, which would burn PO's €s. As a result poor guy will be yelled at, used psychological pressure, threatened and he'd either burn out from working 18/7 or leave the company.

Neither outcome is good for anyone. So why should I allow him join those projects? Am I an arrogant prick just bcz I have a clue and try to avoid a trainwreck?

@Fast-Nop ever heard of Richard Feynman? The famous Nobel prize winning mathematician who said that if you can’t explain something at the most basic level you don’t truly understand it. I’ve used the Feynman technique when explaining statistics and programming to my wife and she has been able to understand complex algorithms and mathematical concepts that it took me weeks or months to understand within a few minutes.

@netikras I’m speaking of a self learning situation. In the even a junior wanted to learn the language on a deeper level and wanted to learn by doing a HUGE project that would maybe take a senior a few months but would take him a year or two to complete would you turn him aside even if you knew that he understood the underlying basic concepts of programming and the process to reaching a problem but the only area he lacked knowledge was in the syntax?

@Codex404 I had to write like a 15 page long program in G-Code that essentially cut a 3-d model of a pyramid with a circular ball on the bottom and words cut into the side. It had to be a specific measurement on every side down to 1000th of an inch. Just to get my certification. Was some intense shit

@Spacecase94 I would have issues making that inside cad software, let alone writing the gcode for it.

@netikras my point is I understand the fundamentals of what makes all programming languages tick, I understand how they work and what is common to most any high level programming language. The learning curve for me is the syntax and domain knowledge. It started because I wanted to write a java program for a chess game, knowing it might take me months to do so, but for me it was a continuous project I could work on....without running out of ideas to practice programming. I was told by this person “there is too much math and logic involved and I “should start out with something simpler like conways game of life, and that might even be too hard” at the same time though, I have a 4.0 gpa and find java to be extremely easy and statistics only slightly more difficult (these are both the classes I’m taking) and everyone else says that these classes are difficult, I was surprised at how easy they actually are even probability is a cake walk.

@Codex404 the key is seeing the end result before it’s finished. Also having a blueprint helps. It took me like 2 weeks to learn Bobcad

@Codex404 also I essentially modeled the program in Cad/Cam software and wrote the program after I tested it in the software. My teacher never said I couldn’t do it, and I didn’t copy and paste or anything I just did my debugging before testing it in class.

@Spacecase94 typical junior programmer who wants to do what "grownups" do :)

@Spacecase94 you see, your wife would be completely unable to actually apply that stuff because that just doesn't cut it.

Just domain knowledge and syntax, eh? That's what you already know that you're lacking, but that's just the tip of the iceberg in comparison to what you don't even know what you don't know.

That's the hard part of any kind of mentoring, breaking it to juniors that they don't know shit. Especially hard and ultimately useless if they start out with an attitude. It's better to let them waste their time on their own.

Unless money is involved, like in a job. Then it's better to terminate the contract while the probation period makes that easy.

@netikras nah just need something to do because according to all the people with experience programming. “You need to practice programming every day to get good at it” and I’m like well what the fuck at I supposed to do if all the projects I find are too easy or too hard?! So I go with the challenging ones

@Spacecase94 master the easy ones first. And I mean it. Unless you think you can convince stakeholders to invest hundreds of thousands of $$s in you, delay a money-making feature for a year or two until you do write that component :)

smaller steps first.

@Fast-Nop well I know I don’t know shit, but I know that I do know enough to write a program and understand the fundamentals. I’ve never had a developer job, but I’ve written G-code that’s about it. I guess it’s the way people come across instead of being like you and saying that I don’t know what I don’t know they’re like “you can’t or shouldn’t do that because you don’t know what you’re doing” that’s what grinds my gears. Treating me like a child when I’m a grown man. Albeit I’ve met a lot of senior developers that are like “you don’t know this, BUT if you want to know how, you gotta learn this this and this” and point me in the direction I need to go. I prefer that over just being told I don’t know how or shouldn’t do something I want to do. Give me direction don’t tell me I can’t do something with a generic reason for why.

@netikras so I should just go through with doing the mind numbing boring concepts I already know and master them first? If that’s the case I’m willing to do it. But I just feel unproductive when I’m not learning new things tbh plus with school they teach something new every week and expect us to have a deep knowledge of it, and they’ve taught essentially the fundamentals of Java in the past 5 weeks and I’m stuck trying to figure out how to use everything I’m learning in a program or multiple programs

@Spacecase94 "treating you like a child when you're a grown up man" - in terms of programming, you ARE a child. If you weren't, you wouldn't have ended up at a programming school.

It's somewhat annoying when beginners want to be treated as pairs when they're not.

@Spacecase94 come up with your own project at home. Try the new things there if you need it that much. But first learn the base java.

Remember that even senior devs fail at java associate exams. An it's the first, the easiest one. So if you think you know java well -- think again.

Build your own project to learn. Whatever you do at work is not for your benefit - it's for stakeholders'.

I feel like this is just IT people in general. I see it most on the infrastructure side. Like “I know how to use AD so I am THE master haxor.” Or the build-your-one-computer crowd who knows the model numbers of such-and-such NVIDIA GPUs, therefore they are the reincarnation of Steve Fucking Jobs. IT is just an area that is generally looked at as “for really smart people” so of course people’s arrogance comes into play..

@Fast-Nop I’m actually in school for computer science and she’s in the same class as me and has the same experience in Java that I do. She’s just programmed with Ruby and Python for a long time

Reading.this whole item makes me think that maybe you're very very intelligent. I don't know anything about gcode but writing such a program like you said, man, that's quite hardcore! I'm sure I know quite some experienced people who might not succeed in writing it. You say Java is very easy. But what did you do with it? My experience is that nothing is really difficult. It just becomes more and more complex as systems evolve and grow, as there will be a point that things get so large and, considering a system as a whole, it will be hard to understand and oversee everything.

@CodeMasterAlex Java is easy for me because I’ve learned that all programming languages have certain fundamentals in common. The only difference between Java and python in my opinion been 1.) the amount of code that is required, due to it being a strictly typed language 2.) the syntax
Personally I break things down into there most basic format and compare the new knowledge to something I already know to learn them faster. That’s why Java is so easy. The hardest part of Java for me is remembering libraries and which ones do what, and when to use them.

@CodeMasterAlex also I’ve made quite a few small projects, but currently I’m building an e-commerce site and payroll system. My biggest problem is coming up with ideas. When I was a machinist we had blueprints and made a program based on the blueprints, since I don’t have a dev job yet I don’t have any “blueprints” but basically if someone was to tell me what they wanted I can quickly build it. My school programming assigned that are “difficult” only take me like 10 minutes to complete.

@Spacecase94 I have tons of commercially interesting ideas! We could work together.

@CodeMasterAlex I would be really happy with that.

@Spacecase94 That can be arranged. Where are you from?

@CodeMasterAlex Ohio, USA