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https://youtube.com/watch/... -
Well, let's see. My thoughts on the matter, I will assume that no such thing as a spirit exists and the interactions between matter is all that makes us, us.
One would next have to define the mind, in my opinion that would be the program (the software) running on our brain (the physical hardware), now, interesting question, can the brain be emulated? Well, we know it at least sort of can via a artificial neural network. We recently did 2.5 million or something neurons. That really is a pittance compared to the rough estimate of 120 billion neurons in a human brain.
The emulation of said brain as well as feeding it data enabled said emulation to learn things such as arithmetic etc. One would think that with enough neurons one could eventually understand language. Now, there are a couple differences between that and a biological brain, we have brainwaves that range in frequency, we have different neurotransmitters and all this adds complexity to our brain. -
That also leads me to another question, is that necessary complexity or just bloat, some outdated hardware running inefficient software? Or, is it necessary for the state of program known as consciousness to be available.
Well, either way you have the brain running a program. You could liken it to a massively parallel processor with cores specialised for each things. Said processor would also be able to change its form and function to adapt to new information, environment, needs etc.
Now, I can also say that the mind is one time step of said program running. This program's destructor would of course be death, or at least enough destruction or degradation to the processor (Alzheimer's or aging anyone?)
Finally, I can get to the fun stuff. Replacing and adding matter to such a system. Well, normal matter like lungs, hearts, livers wouldn't change much. They don't host your consciousness. Brain matter though... Here we get to what actually makes you, you. -
The program requires storage and this is done in the brain via the linking of neurons through synapses. So, you see a teapot, neurons get activated, you see another teapot, the same or slightly different neurons get activated. The connections between said neurons strengthen and viola, you have a memory of a teapot. Enough of this and you'll get the accumulated memory of your life.
So, the questions boils down to this, exactly how many of the neurons, your memories and processing power of the host can you remove before it either can't run the program anymore or the program loses all of its progress and has to start over.
Assuming you could perfectly replicate you brain with all of its connections, you would have exactly that, a replica. Not really you as you know yourself to be because you'd either still be alive and can meet the clone or you'd be dead and your processor and storage would be lost. -
Now, another interesting question, is the mind like a virtual machine. Able to be moved between processors and storage? Would that virtual machine be temporarily shut down, transferred to a new computer and started back up again? Well, hopefully so because otherwise we return to scenario number 1, you die and you get a clone.
In other words, your perfect copy would kill you and continue on its merry way living perhaps thinking it was you due to having all your memories and thinking like you at the point just before the copy.
Another scenario worth exploring is if you add another connected brain, would your program expand to run on that as well. If so, what would happen if you cut the connection to the original brain.
Well, those are my thoughts. Have fun figuring it out for yourself. You'll likely have to do your own research tho due to none currently existing on that. You'd also have to have a nice chat with ethics while you're at it. -
If you are your mind and after copying your mind to machine for e very moment there are two of you, because both copy of you starts to change in their own way. But what with humans whose lost their memory, mind capabilities or go insane? They are still same person and why? Because of body which constantly change and could be lost also?
We are more like evolutionary species, bunch of close related characters which are so similar, but after long time you could tell that it is different person, but how this happened and when? Hard to tell -
@notAnkur thanks! I'll watch it shortly 🙂
@irene chronic sleep deprivation here 😪
@cursee will do 😁 (well minus the drinking part :3)
@netikras please do post your thoughts about it someday! And the quote is from No Game No Life: Zero which I just finished watching before writing this post and going to sleep.. it's somewhere at the end. If you'd like to watch it, be sure to watch the series first though, as Zero is an expansion of that.
@BadFox that's actually a really good explanation.. I really liked reading it. Thanks! 😃 -
@irene brain, the ultimate embedded architecture. Hehehe
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@Omnisus could you truly say they are the same person if they lose enough memories?
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@Condor no problem. Kind of went on a tangent.
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@irene I think I will need to read up on that. 🙂
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@Awlex extra technicality : every millisecond or nanosecond, the body has parts that are dead and born a new.
So for people who consider the complete body = themselves, then yeah 7,8 years is the lifespan.
For anyone who consider even a single cell of their body = themselves, they live much shorter. -
@cursee
Also consider the fact that a good part of these cells killed themselves to keep your body alive.
Not every cell could be considered yourself since it's the teamwork between them helps creating you 😊
Seriously our bodies are miracles, that we don't appreciate enough -
@BadFox SK if someone gives me your memories I will be you? Or which memory is this crucial? This is hard, because sometimes it is still same person but also complete stranger :/
@irene not really, you could just absorbed your twin and now part of your body has completly different DNA, also add mutations and other shit.
@Awlex what with neuron cells? As far as I remember thet wont regrow as skin cells -
@Awlex well, I only really need to take the "you" part into account, the consciousness. That would be your brain and at most the central nervous system as well. The good part of that is neurons don't really replace themselves a lot due to having a limited supply of stem cells to replace themselves with.
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@Omnisus well, I'm not a neuroscientist but you'd probably also need to have the same brain structure (at the individual neuron level) as I. This would make you have a full copy of my memories as well as identical processing of new experiences assuming that the same is given to the original.
You would them have a copy. I don't think you can define a "you" in terms of memories. I think it requires the same memories and brain structure to have a full copy otherwise it's just like another person viewing another person's memory. -
@BadFox if an exact copy of the neurological structure of the brain would be needed, would it even be possible to artificially recreate it in technology?
Wouldn't it be possible to change and improve it to make it more efficient? Nature is an excellent source of inspiration when it comes to efficient systems - after all, it's had billions of years of natural selection to fine-tune pretty much everything. Butterflies and the golden ratio that's so often found in nature are good examples of that.
But would it really be "perfect" without any further optimization opportunities? Even simple optimizations like the removal of certain memories, should that be desired by some (such as traumatic experiences).
I'm fairly certain that - given sufficient brain mapping by the neuroscientists, further improvements by the processor manufacturers and development of quantum processors, and lastly improvements in robotics to recreate an artificial human body - it could very well be within the realm of possibilities of future technology developments. -
@irene not all of it, some neurons are strictly made for processing and exist from birth.
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@Condor, recreating a brain in software is the problem and the question. Where do we cut unnecessary biological simulation? What is necessary to leave in? For example, do we need to simulate each and every neurotransmitter or could we just simulate the end result?
Thing is with nature that it's not not made to be efficient. Efficiency is a side effect of traits that made us survive and were thus passed on. Nature arrived close enough to a local minima of a function of survival with lots of hyper-parameters to tune. It is perhaps not the most efficient but it is effective.
Nothing is ever perfect, there will always be something wrong. We can get close enough to perfect but we won't ever arrive at perfect. Think of it as the limit of a function as the input approaches perfection. The closer you get to perfect the more effort it takes to improve even the slightest fraction. Basically, diminishing returns. -
@Condor
Also, what might be better for our mental state could not be so for survival, otherwise I think we would have developed a method of deleting our own memories. Alas, repression of memories does exist.
Recreating a human body is well within the realm of possibility in the near future. It's a matter of time now. Actually, if you were to find a way to connect sensory organs and transplant a nervous system then cloning and genetically modifying a body to be better before moving our brain over could be a viable way of upgrading. That is the problem though, optic nerves still cannot be reconnected or we would have eye transplants. We need a way to reconnect and facilitate communication between severed nerves then all this is already possible.
When you are programming and you feel philosophical
Choose a job you love, and you will never have to work a day in your life. - Confucio
"As it turns out, this world isn't all that complicated. It's pretty simple actually. It's all a game, a very simple game. Of course, some will try to make it difficult. But you can handle them, I know it. I know you can!"
There's a lot of truth in that. When you get into the depths of how the world works, things turn out to be pretty simple.
One thing I cannot rationalize though. The human spirit. The desires that it embodies. I've had this question for so long - what makes us humans human?
If for example a future surgeon - able to exchange individual cells between me and you - would do so, at which point do you become me, and the other way around? 50+% exchange? But that'd mean that at least part of me is still "you". In that state, are you truly you?
Not sure what the cellular definition of an individual is, given that we're headed towards a bionic society where synthetic organs will likely become more relevant than the donated parts of me that I've recently applied as a donor for. I wholeheartedly encourage that future, but the philosophical questions that surround it become more relevant.
How about the impact of influencers on the mind? For example, I've seen the term "certified enganeers" become a trend here, which I'm very grateful for. It does raise a question though. If for example I were to die, would the term live on? And if so, is that a part of what makes me "me"? Would a part of me live on in you? Would your spirit be partially me, due to mere influence?
What makes up the human creature anyway? I think of my own body as a mere vessel for my mind, but I can't quite grasp what makes up the mind, and philosophical questions like "if I were to upload my mind to a robot and instruct it to kill me, would that carbon copy become *me*?"
The human nature is such a weird thing.. and technology doesn't make it any simpler. Is it really just a simple game, with simple rules and e.g. a biological program running inside of a biological motor? Or is there more to it?
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philosophy